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Kerala violence is targetted at CPI(M) to create atmosphere that helps BJP through central intervention: Prakash Karat

Prakash Karat reflects on political violence in Kerala, challenges before left parties, Narendra Modi government and 2019 general election.

Kerala violence is targetted at CPI(M) to create atmosphere that helps BJP through central intervention: Prakash Karat Former CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat. (Photo by ‘Kenz Ul Munner’)

Former CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat talks about Congress-CPI (M) electoral alliance, political violence in Kerala, challenges before left parties, Narendra Modi government and alternatives, new social movements, identity politics, 70 years of India, 2019 general election, decline of his party and a possible merger of the CPI(M) and CPI.

1. How do you evaluate the past three years of Modi government? What kind of ‘Acha Din’ the people of India got in these years? Do you sense a fundamental change in the body politics of India in these years?

We have had twenty five years of neo-liberal policies in our country. That has brought about significant changes in our society and our polity. We have a neo-liberal politics also in our country. Not only economics. Even the politics has changed. The politicians and political parties twenty five years ago or thirty years ago, they are not the same today. For many parties the way they functioned their politics has changed. Modi is a product of that. He is a quintessential product of neo-liberalism and he is an authoritarian type of person. But rightwing authoritarianism is embodied in a leader. In country after country, we are seeing such rightwing leaders who also have a populist aspect. In the case of the rise of Modi, the immediate background was the complete disillusionment and disgust with the Congress led UPA government and its corruption, wrong policies etc.

People wanted something totally different. They went for Modi. It is a fact. He had popular support. There was no doubt that Modi had greater support than the BJP. That period of popularity was there in the first three years. The tide is turning now. Now there is a shift. But it is wrong to say that his innings has played out. In fact in three years BJP consolidated its political position. In three years they were able to grow and consolidate their political position mainly at the expense of the Congress party and also at the expense of the some of the regional parties. But that phase is now ending. Now will come the reverse phase. But how quickly we can undercut the support which the BJP and Modi had gained depends on how we intervene and see that the movements and struggles develop on a very wide scale.

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2. There has been a continuous attack on the lives of common people in different ways. Demonetization, land acquisition ordinance were some examples. But it seems that the agony of the people was not translated into large scale struggles. Government dares to go any distant. Is there an opposition vacuum to channelize this agony into fruitful struggles which acts as deterrence?

I don’t think it will be correct to say that there are no large scale struggles. I mentioned farmer’s struggles. In the case of working class, in September 2016 there was a very big general strike where we saw participation of millions of workers. Now all the central trade unions are in a big protest action in Delhi on 9th, 10th and 11th of the November, when thousands of workers every day are going to have sit-ins, a Mahapadav. It includes thousands of workers from all over the country from which they again announce the next phase of the struggle. If we are talking about factory level struggles, yes, struggles are not growing because of the serious insecurity. Unemployment is very serious problem. So workers are hesitant in conducting strikes in a prolonged way. There is economic slowdown; you see how jobs are lost in the organized sector today. But on macro policy issues, against privatization public sectors workers are in struggle. Entire trade union movement is united and struggles are developing. I think that the coming period is going to be a period of growing struggles and more intensified struggles.

3. How does CPI (M) take up these struggles?

Festive offer

This is our main work today. Whatever resources we have, whatever the strength we have, we are putting it into supporting and developing and in some places leading these struggles. It is not enough to have separate streams of struggles. You have Kisan struggles, working class struggles and struggles of students, Dalits, writers and intellectuals. So we have sought to get all the mass organizations, class organizations, social movements come together on to one platform. They are going to start united campaigns and struggles. This will include everybody. Anybody working with any section of the people, among tribal, among the Dalits, women, students, we are asking them to join. That will give a full combined thrust to the struggle.

4. Because of the cultural politics emerging e.g. the cow issue, communal issues. Are forced to divert large scale attention to these issues and social discourse preoccupies these issues and the economic discourse is being back tracked. Do you think so? Whether a discourse shift is happening where instead of confronting neo – liberal economic policies and fighting for the improvement in the material life of the people you are forced to deal with another discourse where conversion, religion, communalism etc. constitute the main issue? How do you combine both?

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We have seen the experience of last three and half years of the Modi government. It is marked by two thrusts: One, aggressive neoliberal policies, and the other, the offensive of the Hindutva agenda. The BJP came to power with Narendra Modi as the Prime Minister, fully backed by big bourgeois of our country. That was the distinctive hallmark that we saw in the run up to the Lok Sabha election. Even before 2014, all the corporate chieftains had come out saying here is the man who should be the Prime Minister. So he was very much the candidate of the corporates. That agenda is being unfolded now as the Prime Minister. In order to maintain this neo-liberal thrust Hindutva is resorted to. The big bourgeois of our country are not all Hindutva devotes but they recognize that Hindutva is useful for ensuring this economic agenda is pushed through. But we should not forget that in a three and half years, what is finally the effect on people? Yes, there is communalization of certain sections of the people and society. We saw that in UP in a big way. But at the same time the neo-liberal policies have led to growing discontent among people. In first three years the focus was how smoothly Modi is doing things. The corporates and its media, saying he is going to deliver on all his promises; job growth etc. Now in the last six months there is an alternative picture emerging. Picture of growing resistance and discontent is emerging primarily because of the impact of his policies.

“In three years BJP was able to grow and consolidate their political position mainly at the expense of the Congress party and also at the expense of the some of the regional parties. But that phase is now ending,” Karat said. (Photo by ‘Kenz Ul Munner’)

We have not seen such big farmers’ struggles in recent years as it happened in the last six months. Whether it is in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, or, Rajasthan, and they are all BJP ruled states. Second, in this upswing of struggles of workers and all other sections, the economic part is manifesting itself and it is growing. Not only cultural politics but this mixture of neoliberalism and Hindutva is the fertile ground for authoritarianism. Both to impose neo-liberalism and to impose the Hindutva agenda you need authoritarianism. You already have the onset of a Hindutva authoritarian regime, or, an authoritarian communal regime. The struggles are taking place also. You see that students are struggling in many places. But where are the main struggles of the students? It is in the central universities. That is where the attack is concentrated because it is under the central government. Whether it is in HCU or JNU and all other central universities struggles are sharpened and students are struggling. You mentioned the Dalit struggles; Cow politics and other things affect Dalits badly. So you are finding these struggles developing. But the main arena of struggle against the Modi government is going to be on economic issues. Fight against the neo-liberal policy that is going to mark the turning point where that will give support and sustenance to the anti-communal and anti–authoritarian struggle also.

5. According to some media reports there is such confusion or schism in your party regarding an electoral alliance with Indian National congress. Is that the case? How could you fight BJP electorally without joining with all other secular political formations including Indian National Congress? What is your party’s stand?

A large number of democratic and secular minded people want to see the BJP defeated. They think that unity of all opposition parties is the way to do it. It is a natural urge. To defeat BJP they advocate unity of all opposition parties. That is how the idea of Mahagathbandhan came about. We have been skeptical about this.

Yes we have to fight the BJP, but how do you fight it? We have been saying that by just putting together all parties of various shades and types and then say this is a viable anti-BJP force is not going to work. This is not the reality of Indian politics. They had a Mahagathbandhan in Bihar. We saw what happened after that. Without having a common policy and programmatic understanding you can’t have a durable unity. There are various opportunistic interests. They will come together today, tomorrow they will break off. That will not give the picture of a credible alternative. What we want is a clear-cut policy platform against neoliberalism, against the communal agenda and against the authoritarian danger. How do you build that alternative platform? It can be only through mobilizing people through mass struggles and movements. So we are for unity for this purpose.

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Some think of putting the cart before the horse. First, electoral unity to bring everybody together. They will fight election together, discussing how many seats each should fight. This is a recipe for disunity. Every party has different ideas. There was no Mahagathbandhan in UP. Why it was not possible? Because people do not have the same understanding and approach and some of these parties are opportunist.

We have reviewed our experience of working with many of the regional parties. They are still big parties. But many of them are opportunist. They can go with BJP one day or with Congress another day as long as it suits their interests. So what is needed to build an alternative? If you stress only election alliances as the basis for unity, it will not help. Our understanding is that let us build unity in peoples struggles of the working class, kisans etc and forge a wider unity. Whoever is willing to come to these united struggles, they all are welcome. They all should be part of it and join the struggle.

As far as fighting the communal danger, Hindutva forces are posing a serious threat. Attacks are there. Build unity against them. Why is it that when Pehlu Khan was killed in Rajasthan, the secular parties did not say let us all unite in that area and fight together? Build that sort of militant unity. There the question won’t be who is socialist, who is Congress or Communist. Anybody can join. Build anti-communal unity of that type. Above all, main focus should be on fight against neo-liberal policies. In this, the Congress party has not got any credibility to come and say they will fight neo-liberal policies, because they are the originators of neo-liberal policies. Even today, when they criticize GST there is no credibility. Because they wanted GST. Aadhar they introduced. Except for demonetization which was Modi’s brainwave, all other economic policies of Congress they have carried forward and pursued aggressively. Congress’s economic policy was privatization, inviting foreign capital, opening up financial sector. What Modi doing is executing these things aggressively as he has a majority. Therefore you cannot have an alliance with Congress and have an anti-neoliberal or alternative agenda. That is why we are not for such an alliance. In our 21st Party Congress held in April 2015, a year after Modi came to power, we said we must build the unity of the anti-BJP, secular and democratic forces but it cannot be done by an alliance or electoral understanding with the Congress. Because they essentially represent the same class interests.

There is a place for Congress in the anti-communal struggle. Even in that, the record of Congress is mixed. They have vacillated and compromised in the past. But they can be part of the broad anti-communal platform. But a political alliance with the Congress, according to us, is not going to be credible and it will compromise our fight against neo-liberalism which is the main weapon we have against the BJP. If we can’t carry forward that fight against BJP we can’t rally the people.

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Now we have started our preparations for the 22nd Party Congress which is to be held in April next year. We will be preparing the draft Political Resolution for that in January. So discussions have started about the draft. Naturally, in that, the political-tactical line to be adopted will be taken up. We will discuss our experience since 2015 in implementing the line which was adopted. All that will be done in January. In our Party, we have full democracy in innerParty discussions. This is not some schism as portrayed by the media.

6. Liberal intellectuals have been making a case for an alliance of all secular forces to defeat what they consider to be a fascist regime of BJP. Even Marxist intellectuals like Irfan Habib strongly makes the case for a joint fight of CPI (M) with parties like INC. Prabhat Patnaik also points out the need of a joint political fight. How do you look into the scenario?

Such an outlook detaches the struggle against neo-liberal policies from the struggle against the fascistic communal forces. There is no question of being equidistant from the BJP and the Congress. The BJP poses the main danger and the priority is to fight the BJP-RSS combine. We can cooperate with all the secular opposition parties including the Congress in Parliament and coordinate with them in taking up issues outside Parliament too. But an alliance with the Congress will be self-defeating.

It was advocated that we should go with the Congress even in Kerala. That will be liquidating the Communist Party. Where the Communist movement has grown it has grown through class struggles. On the other side of the class struggle was the Congress party. It is a party of big bourgeoisie and landlords. To say compromise with them or ally with them politically would mean you are weakening your party. If you are weakening the CPI (M) and Left, then you are weakening the fight against BJP.

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The real direction of the political line is that you mount an offensive against the BJP through building up class and mass struggles against the neo-liberal policies of Modi government, against the communal agenda and authoritarian attacks. This is the direction we wish to pursue.

7. Privatization is being aggressively implemented by the Union Government. Disinvestment of public sector industries, privatization of Air India, Indian Railway etc. is carried out aggressively. The same neo – liberal ideology was the policy of UPA govt. What is the alternative Left has to offer? How would you convince the people and attract the oppressed sections?

This is what we are exactly trying to do in Kerala through the LDF government; two areas which directly affect the people – education and health. We have decided we must put in resources whatever the difficulties or limitations the state government has. We must upgrade the public education system and public health system. Government schools and Government hospitals from primary health centers to Taluk level hospitals to district hospitals are being upgraded. If you can do that then only people can be rallied against the privatization. Today there is no choice for the people. They are forced to go to private sector. Concretely we have to show that public education system and public health system works and people can benefit out of it. V.S Achuthanandan headed LDF government also did that. It got disrupted in five years of UDF government. Now we are again reviving public sector enterprises under the state. This is something which is an alternative to neo-liberal agenda of privatization. If you can show it works it will attract more people.

In India unfortunately, except the Left, nobody is taking anti- privatization struggles or agenda seriously. So we have an alternative but we need to carry it forward in a bigger way. We have an advantage that we have two state governments. We should by concrete examples show that it is possible.

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8. Now a Left government is power in Kerala for the last 18 months. How do you evaluate its performance in governance?

The LDF government in Kerala has set-up four missions – missions on housing, education, health and green mission. They have just been put in place. I think we should wait for another six months for completing two years, to get more clarity about the actual implementation. Nevertheless, given the limitations of a state government the aim is to prove that alternative policies can be undertaken. I mentioned earlier about public health and public education. Similarly, other welfare schemes to improve the standard of living of the most deprived, poorer sections in the society have been implemented such as enhancement of pensions, minimum wages and so on.

9. ‘Kerala’s killing fields’ is the prime time debate topic in a number of national news channels in past weeks after the death of a RSS activist in Trivandrum. Senior RSS leader asked the central government to impose presidential rule in the state as they allege that by using the state power CPI (M) is targeting the Sangh Pariwar activists. How CPI (M) responds to these allegations and demands? How to stop political violence?

First we must see it in the context of national situation. As far as the BJP and the RSS are concerned, they are targeting the Left and in particular the CPI (M). They realize that in places like Kerala, the CPI (M) and the Left movement are the main obstacles to their advance. Unlike many places in the country, there is active resistance to the RSS and the BJP agenda in Kerala. Resistance is not just in terms of the electoral battles but in all fields: ideological, social, cultural. In all spheres they meet with this resistance which has got popular support and backing. So in order to fight that the RSS has, not now, for five decades been trying to find a way to disrupt the organized Left movement and Communist Party and they have resorted to violent tactics right from the beginning. Even when they were a small force in Kerala, particularly in Kannur, they started. They came as an anti-Communist force to attack the working class movement, to attack the trade union movement, to attack the Beedi workers and they brought by the Beedi company owners to break the worker’s resistance. So this conflict has a clear class angle. It has ideological, political aspects too.

RSS sees the Communists as its most determined opponent. That is why even in 70s, 80s and 90s when the BJP was nowhere in power at the Centre, RSS was always adopting aggressive tactics against the CPI (M). Now because they are in power they are trying to make this into a national issue. An elementary question can be asked. The CPI (M) and the LDF win the assembly election in 2016 with a big majority and forms a government and on the very day of election results starts the violence. Violence breaks out in the constituency of the Chief Minister. Is it in the interests of CPI (M) when they are forming a government? Would they like to create a situation of street clashes and violence? It is not the objective interest of the CPI (M) or the LDF. So it is very clear that violence and street clashes and targeted attacks are being mounted against the CPI (M) and the Left there in order to create an atmosphere which would help BJP through the intervention of the central government. If we miss this dimension then it would simply seem as street violence between the activists of both parties. I think the issue is much bigger than that.

10. How could stop the violence? What are your efforts?

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The provocation is again coming from the RSS and the BJP is just a junior partner there. The RSS is the main force in Kerala. Our Party leadership is again and again calling for restraint on behalf of our Party. They come and attack our office. Then the natural thing would be to try and retaliate. So we are telling our people don’t get provoked. This is a deliberate, planned attack to create a situation where there would be clashes. That is why, despite all the provocations even during the Jan RakshaYatra of BJP, though there were so many provocations, there were not any clashes this time. It is the RSS interest to create such violence and clashes. It is not our interest.

11. But you have to show your efforts to the rest of the country. How would you make a counter narrative to Sangh Parivar?

What we show is the actual situation in Kerala. What is the reality of Kerala today? What are the policies of the LDF government? What are the welfare measures this government taking. How communal peace and harmony is maintained. We highlight the positives; the alternative to RSS-BJP raj. The fact is that Kerala is striving in terms of all these aspects are itself an affront to the BJP and the RSS. That is why they got the Yatra pitch wrong. It did not met with appreciation of the people because they portrayed Kerala in a way that the people of Kerala saw this is not what Kerala is. Why are you defaming us? So BJP pitched it totally wrong.

12. Vocal critics of Hindutva ideology are being continuously haunted and murdered across the country. Dabholkar, Pansare, Kalburgi, Gauri Lankesh etc. are recently gunned down. Who is scared of rationalism and criticism? What is their objective and motive?

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I made a point earlier that the RSS used to kill CPI (M) cadres for the last four decades in Kerala. Why do they do that? It is because they cannot fight our ideologies and ideas except by physically trying to eliminate. That is they are doing all over the country. The difference is, in Kerala all that killing did not succeed in their trying to roll back the Left and Communists. On the other hand in these other places they already have a strong base. Karnataka is one of the few states in south India where BJP has a strong base. So there they are on an offensive and attacking. It may not the BJP or RSS formally. There are Hindutva outfits like the Sanatan Sanstha. They are more extreme and everyone knows that the CBI enquiry has pinpointed some of their people in the Dabholkar and Pansare murders and I am sure that similar forces are there involved in the Kalburgi and Gauri Lankesh murders. How do you fight them? Ultimately the fight is among the masses, among the people. How do you win over the people against this sort of rightwing ideology? The point we made in our last party congress is that this is a fight we cannot conduct only by electoral methods. This is a political, ideological, social, cultural battle. In all spheres, we have to fight them.

13. This is a high time of ultra-nationalism. Those who criticize the government are often branded as anti-nationals. When you wrote an article which was critical of Army chief, the right wing groups alleged that you are insulting army. For them, that too constituted dishonoring the nation. Communist movement once stood for autonomy of sub nationalities. How do you join in the nationalism debate?

As far as my criticisms about some of the Army Chief’s remarks are concerned, precisely the point is that in a parliamentary democracy the armed forces or bureaucracy are subordinate to civil – political authority. Therefore, if they cannot be criticized then we will not remain a democracy. So I would assert again that we have the right to be critical of any institution of the state including the armed forces in a parliamentary democratic system.

Second is the issue of nationalism. The BJP is whipping up ultra-nationalism which is actually Hindu nationalism, exactly Hindu rightwing nationalism. In a country like India, a lot of people are not yet able to distinguish between nationalism and sectarian religious based nationalism. We saw that in UP. One of the major reasons for the UP success of BJP, according to me, is their use of appeal of nationalism to the people. The second aspect is that there is no sub-nationalism in UP. Most of the people in UP do not think they are “Uttarpradeshis”. Instead they think as they are “Bharatheeyas”. They do not have any regional identity. The BJP could easily make use of this sort of nationalist chauvinism or ultra-nationalism. It is necessary for us, the Left, to take this seriously. We have to expose their nationalism as pseudo-nationalism. Because their nationalism is not anti-imperialist. Nationalism developed in this country through the fight against imperialism. We became a nation by fighting against foreign rule. So minus that their nationalism is not nationalism. Their nationalism is being loyal to American imperialism. That must be countered.

As far as sub-nationalism, we always maintained that in a country like India with so many linguistic nationalities, we must have a federal structure. In the present situation it is translated into the federal principle being implemented in India and the states must be given their due rights and power. That cannot be ignored. The BJP version of nationalism works in northern India because there are no sub-national identities which are strong. But in the south and east subnational identities are very much defined. If the BJP goes against that, they will not be able to advance. Therefore, we have to champion the cause of these sub-national identities and rights.

14. Do you think that the federal structure of the country faces great threats? Take GST. It undermines the entire taxing power of the state. That means the economic resources are crunched. And various kinds of economic centralization happen alarmingly. Whether country moves or attempts are made to convert into a unitary political structure?

This is a process inherent in neo-liberalism; the process of centralization and depriving the states of their existing limited power. It is not a process suddenly begun with Modi. The GST was also UPA’s baby. BJP state governments were opposing it at that time. The difference is the Modi government has majority in the Lok Sabha. They are able to push things more speedily forward. The anti-federal aspect has got further accentuated under Modi. But it had already grown and developed. I am struck by this. In our days in student movements we were opposed to education being in the concurrent subjects. It was made during the emergency. Till then it was state subject. Today I am amazed by all state governments are simply given a central university. Our state universities must be strengthened and funded. But money comes only through central university. So states are competing with each other for central universities. We want an AIIMS and we want a central university because your power is gone. They do not have the capacity either to raise the resources or improve the existing institutions. You saw the other day Nitish Kumar saying please make Patna University a central university. But it is being done without thinking, that they are actually further eroding the autonomy of the states and rights. All education is going to the central sphere. Even the regional parties which have to champion of state’s autonomy and rights are also succumbing to this.

15. India is 70 years old now. How do you look at the past 70 year’s journey of the country? What are the challenges?

It is a large question. Let me put it into three areas. Independent India’s main achievement in 70 years is that we have maintained a parliamentary democratic system which has provided people some hope for the public participation and assertion of their rights with all the limitations. That it has not been abolished like in many other newly independent countries though threats are there. Second part is that this is flawed, limited democracy because of the fact that we are unable to provide economic emancipation for the people. Minus economic emancipation, democracy remains formal for the people. Third area where in seventy years our progress is limited is in the social sphere. In seventy years at this point we can say that we are at the highest level of inequality in independent India. And in the social sphere also we have really failed in eliminating social inequality and caste inequality. I think the balance sheet put together in seventy years is something which is very mixed because what growth we have had, that growth has led to inequalities and deprivation for a large section of the people. Neither we have been able to accomplish what is there in our Constitution, in the directive principles much of that remains on paper. So we have still a long way to go. In that context Modi’s talking about a new India by 2022 seems like a Utopia.

16. In a recent article you have argued the need for a serious reform in our parliamentary election system. Instead of first-past-post voting, in which even a party with just 31% vote rules the country, are you demanding a proportional representation? How it would work out?

First of all there is need for basic electoral reforms. Among those reforms the key one which our party is advocating right from the beginning is the change in the electoral system. Change in the first – past – post system based on territorial constituencies. We would like proportional representation (PR) to be introduced. But there are various types of proportional representation systems. We are not arguing for total PR system. Let us say that there are 540 seats in parliament, there should be proportional representation with the list of all the 540 candidates of the party and people vote for the party list and according to the percentages of votes polled proportionately you get the seat. That is the full proportional representation. We are asking for a mixed system, what is known as proportional representation with partial list system. So some seats would be on party list and some seats would be territorial based. There are various ways this is done in other countries in the world. One way is to have one vote for the party list and one vote for your territorial constituency. That is the one way of doing it. The other way is 50% territorial and 50 % will be proportional. You can have the different mixes. But proportional representation definitely will make it more fair system and secondly it will be more representative especially in a country like ours. we need to see that all social groups and communities are represented so somebody who gets five percent will also find representation. Now in our country having 10% votes and not getting any seat, 15 % votes and not getting seats. So structure a system whereby we keep benefits of having territorial constituencies and there should be a countervailing principle of party list so that the use of money power and muscle power is also curbed. That is why we advocate PR system.

17. As a movement based on theory, do you have theoretical confusion in defining the character of Modi regime controlled by RSS. When the liberal intellectuals or even Left intellectuals make the case that the regime in power is fascist one, you wrote that it could not be called fascist yet. Instead you call it right wing authoritarian regime, not yet fascist. Why you don’t call it fascist? Then how would you define Hindutva movement and the current regime?

Liberal understanding of fascism and Marxist understanding of fascism are different. Fascism is a term which can be used in a general way but for Marxists it has a specific meaning. It has class content. We have not come to the conclusion that this is a fascist government. I think very few people have stated that. There are people saying that this government is showing the symptoms of fascism or fascist trends. We have in our Party Congress in 2015 said that this is a precursor to growing authoritarianism. Now we feel that authoritarianism has set in. It is a particular type of authoritarianism. We have different types of authoritarianism in the world today, rightwing authoritarianism of various varieties. You have rightwing authoritarianism in Turkey under Erdogan. There are other forms of the authoritarianism. They use religious nationalism, they use ultra-nationalism. They attack democratic rights but they are also people who work within the political system. They win elections. Erdogan and his party have won elections in Turkey in the last 15 years. So within a formal democratic structure, you can have forces which are anti-democratic, authoritarian undermining democracy by utilizing the formal apparatus of the democracy.

In India, RSS is a fascistic organization; the BJP is controlled and run by the RSS. It is not an ordinary party like the other bourgeois parties. What the BJP-RSS and the BJP government instituting today in India is rightwing communal authoritarianism which is capable of utilizing fascistic methods. Attacks on minorities, attacking other dissenting opinions are fascistic methods. What will happen in the future we cannot say but at present we must deal with this. In fighting against fascism and fighting against authoritarianism the tactics would differ. We have a great scope for developing mass movements and struggles today. There will be repressions but repression existed even before. Working class struggles now face repression, peasant struggles face repression; Dalits would face repression, making the degree of repression more. But scope for fighting against this right wing communal authoritarianism is immense in India. That is what we should be getting into rather than talking about whether it is fascism or not. Because that paralyzes you. If you start saying that fascism has come, that means goodbye to all democratic methods, or, legal methods to fight and for mass mobilization. It disarms you. The ruling class is strong in India. But at the same time enough reservoirs of democratic rights and consciousness is there among people. We can utilize it to fight back.

So we should have a correct assessment to work on correct strategy and tactics. While we can understand the rhetoric and speeches where you condemn fascist attacks, threat of fascist forces and all that, we do not think the situation has come when fascism is imminent, or, on the door step.

18. The secular character and liberal nature of India is getting eroded day by day. How CPI (M) would fight the next general election? What are your primary concern and agenda?

We would adopt at that time, taking into account the prevailing situation, electoral tactics where we can maximize the mobilization against BJP; to defeat it. We would work out tactics accordingly. Where the CPI (M) is strong the main responsibility for defeating the BJP will be ours. In Tripura, BJP has become the main opposition. So we will take that responsibility and ensure that BJP is defeated. In Kerala we will take that responsibility. In Bengal we will work out tactics that, despite all the constraints, the BJP doesn’t gain. But in other states it will depend. There are some regional parties. We will co-operate, if it is possible, with some of these parties to fight the BJP. We will work out the concrete tactics at that time. But the main focus will be how to defeat the BJP. We will definitely put forward an alternative platform of policies through which we try to rally people.

19. In 2004 Lok Sabha election CPI (M) got 40 plus seats. After that in both 2009 and 2014 elections a significant decline happened in number of seats. Why such an electoral setback? What do you expect of party’s performance in 2019 election?

It is because of the electoral setback in West Bengal. Every Lok Sabha election CPI (M) used to get around 30 -35 seats. Out of that, 20-25 seats used to come from West Bengal. Without this strength will come down accordingly. The setback in Bengal has affected the tally in parliament.

20. The Left ruled West Bengal for continuous 34 years. But now CPI (M) struggles to politically survive in Bengal. In the legislative election, party registered big loss for the second time. In the recent local self-body elections the defeating mode continuous. Why Left faced such a set back? What is the agenda to bring back party into the power? Are you hopeful about a speedy political regaining?

I would say that we have suffered a setback. It is not an existential question. One part of that setback is also because Trinamool Congress does not allow us to work normally in Bengal. Recently there were Municipal elections. In a place like Durgapur, an industrial city where the CPI (M) is strong, we could not win a single seat. In many seats, we polled poor number of votes because they won’t allow voters to come to the polling booth. They captured the booths and registered the votes in the voting machine. In Haldia, another industrial town, even in the 2016 assembly elections we won the seat there. This time we lost deposits, we polled 34 votes in one ward. So they are not allowing people to vote. Electoral results don’t show the actual situation. But yes setback is there. There has been erosion in our support and we have not yet regained that. The task remains difficult because of the attack concentrated by the Trinamool Congress. They won’t let our people work in the villages. If do any work they won’t allow you to stay there saying to leave the village; If you want to live in your village surrender to us. That sort of attack and terror is there. Overcoming all that, gradually we are re-establishing our links with the people and conducting campaigns.

We are working but we are also faced with another serious problem. The TMC is conducting a type of politics in which they want a polarization in which BJP will come into the picture and they want to squeeze out the Left. They are not targeting the BJP physically as they do the Left. BJP is trying to grow in Bengal. Both BJP and TMC play communal politics between them. Mamata thinks she can consolidate Muslim support behind her and BJP is happy with that. When there was 34 years of Left rule there was no communal politics in Bengal of any sort. No communal politics would thrive in Bengal in those years. Now as they are trying to push back the Left it is sought to be filled by communal politics. Bengal has a history of partition and communal politics existed in pre-independence days. The danger is that BJP and TMC bringing this sort of communal politics again. Therefore, we have to face that challenge also. We have to fight both TMC and BJP there and overcome these attacks.

21. Tripura, Bengal and Kerala; these three states are the strong holds of CPI (M). Why party is unable to reach into the rest of the country in terms of electoral success and social base? What are the hardships to reach out? Do you see any positive improvement?

That is the perennial question not only you pose but it is also a question before us also. We have been trying to grapple with that question more than last four decades. There are various historical reasons why the communist movement became strong in these three states and its roots lay in the anti-imperialist and anti-feudal struggle in pre-independence days. So in these three states communists or the Left oriented congress in those days were able to develop the antifeudal and anti-imperialist struggles together. That gave us a big advantage and we were able to acquire political hegemony in one sense. We could not replicate that in other states.

India is a sub-continent. It is a multi-national country. Therefore, you cannot replicate the same experience from Kerala or Bengal to Karnataka or Odisha. That is our problem. In one sense revolutionary movements stop at the borders of states! It does not cross over. That is because of the socio-economic, cultural and political forces in states differ. Even the caste structure is different. Caste system structured differs from state to state. Language differs. The culture differs. So it doesn’t spread automatically or evenly. That is something which we realized long before. But we are not able to yet achieve a breakthrough in any other state. That is important. We have also learned that the breakthrough will not happen quickly. It will take a lot of patient work over the years.

22. How would you respond to the criticism that communist movement’s ‘Class blind’ approach failed you to address the caste question properly and that failure limits you to make inroads into a caste ridden society like India? Is caste just a super structure phenomenon? Will it get rid of with the penetration of Capitalism? What is your caste annihilation agenda and program?

There has to be a proper Marxist understanding of class and caste in India, it sometimes gets simplified or vulgarized in certain interpretations. In India no Communist movement can advance without taking into account the relationship between caste and class and also aligning the class struggle with the struggle against social oppression. According to us, a proper understanding of the Indian state is a bourgeois-landlord state. The main process of class exploitation is buttressed by the social order. The hegemony of the ruling classes is imposed or legitimized by the social order in which caste is very much an inherent part of it. If you have to fight against the state and the bourgeois landlord order you have to fight on both tracks. That is against class exploitation and against caste order. How do you combine that or how do you integrate it? That is the difficult question in India. Because, within the caste system there has been further class differentiation. Take the issue of other backward classes; there is high degree of class differentiation taking place under the process of capitalist development. So you cannot talk about an overall solidarity within other backward classes. Because within that there are exploiters and exploited, there are landlords and oppressed peasantry. Among sections of the people, their social consciousness, or hegemony exercised over them of caste, prevents solidarity being established. That is something more at the practical level. The failure is at that level of how we tackle it rather than at the theoretical level.

23. How would you tackle the issue?

Well. In some places we have been successful. Kerala is one example. We have cut across caste barriers. But at the same time we built up solidarity of classes within these various castes without ignoring or neglecting the social dimensions. But it has not been possible everywhere. That is one of the most important challenges before the Communist movement.

24. How do you see the new social movements and identity politics emerging in various parts of the country? The all India Kisan Sabha representatives were there in Una joining hands with JigneshMevani. On the other hand you strongly criticize some of these movements as you believe that it weakens the class struggle? What are your agreements and disagreements with these movements and struggles?

Our critique of identity politics in general is that resurgence of identity politics in our country is not separate from the neo- liberal policies and the impact of imperialist globalization. It has led to a spurt in Identity politics. This is a universal phenomenon not only in India. Identity politics can be of different varieties. You can have religious based identity politics. In India, there is caste based identity politics and ethnic based or region based identity politics. Basically such identity politics actually reinforces the ruling class politics. The neo-liberal state and regime actually promotes identity politics, because it fragments people on identities. So basically our critique is on how identity politics is a barrier to the forging of wider unity and collective identities and class solidarity. In that context we criticize identity politics. But it should not be confused with assertion of oppressed class and social groups in India who are asserting their rights, fighting against social oppression. We should not mix up these two. So there is nothing strange for class based organization to support and have solidarity with social groups and communities which are fighting against social oppression. There is a natural affinity or solidarity between these two groups. Whether it is a working class movement or Kisan movement it can link up with such struggle against social oppression. We do not have a negative attitude towards it.

In the Rashtriya Adikar Manch, which was set up recently, a number of social movements are there including the National Alliance of People’s Movement. They are there in the Left platform. So we are working together in many places. On the question of food security, on the question of PDS, Dalit rights, Narmada Bhachavo Andolan, we are co-operating with those movements. We formulated this stand of cooperation 15 years ago.

25. Today in almost all parts of the world we see an alarming growth of right wing forces. The Tea party movement and trump phenomenon in USA, Sangh Parivar forces in India, Nationalist Front of Marine le pen in France and various Islamist forces in different countries of the Middle East are some examples. Eminent thinker Samir Amin explains this growth as the phenomenon of ‘the return of fascism in contemporary capitalism’. Is it that the fascist threat is hanging like the sword of Damocles before our head?

I differ from the analysis of Samir Amin. What is happening is that after three decades, neo-liberalism is in crisis. It has reached a dead-end. It is recognized by serious ideologues of the bourgeoisie. But they are not able to see the way forward out of this crisis. Unfortunately, while neo-liberalism is in crisis no progressive alternative has emerged. So “morbid on symptoms”, to use Gramsci’s phrase, appears. The rightwing is cashing in more effectively on the various discontents unleashed by neo-liberalism. That is why the extreme right including neo-Nazis are raising their heads in Europe and US. The Trump phenomenon is part of that. The rise of various rightwing parties and groups in Europe is also a part of that. To that extent, it is correct. However, I think we should look at the obverse of this also. Finally, out of this crisis a real Left is also emerging.

What happened in Europe was that the social democrats were considered as the Left, or, Centre-Left. The Socialist Party in France, Labour Party in Britain, SPD in Germany etc., were actually social democrats who had surrendered to neo-liberalism and embraced neo-liberalism. The worst example is Tony Blair of Labour Party. They completely got themselves integrated with the neo-liberal framework. So they are getting completely discredited. That vacuum, the collapse of the social democrats, is to some extent filled by the Right. But out of that finally a Left is emerging. The most significant of that trend is the Labour Party. The labour party that was led by Blair is today led by Jeremy Corbyn who has put forward a Left platform and he is getting popular support. The Social Democrats have to turn Left or they will get consigned to the dust bin. That happened to the French Socialist Party; the ruling party of President François Hollande. In the recent presidential election in the first round his party got only 6 per cent votes and a Left candidate who said we have nothing to do with neo-liberalism got 19.6 per cent. So you are getting now finally out of the social democratic betrayal to neo-liberalism, out of that some new Left or Left platforms are emerging. That should also be seen. So it is not just what you might call a complete shift from extreme right to fascism. There are also countervailing factors developing.

26. The emergence of right wing forces poses great challenges before the progressive and democratic forces all over the world now. People like Slavoj Zizek points that this right wing growth creates greater opportunities for a Left revival and strengthening of Left forces as people at large are really dismayed and looking for an alternative. In the case of India too we see such an alarming growth of Hindutva forces attempting to create a corporate backed Hindu Rashtra. How would the party capitalize the anger of people and seize the opportunity?

Exactly! Out of the crisis comes the opportunity for the Left to intervene and advance provided it stands for a real Left platform. Again, not compromise with neo-liberalism. In India, only the Left can provide a coherent alternative platform to the present neo-liberal-Hindutva paradigm. On the basis of this platform, against neo-liberalism and against Hindutva agenda you can rally the widest sections; particularly the working people and build their struggles and movements. That is how the Left can advance and come forward as an alternative. This is what we call the Left and democratic platform.

The Left and democratic platform is again not an alliance of political parties for elections. It is a platform of various classes who can be rallied to fight against these forces. That is what our aim is. We are not looking at it as if the situation is bleak. The opportunity has come. Because we know that the Hindutva communal agenda is in one sense more difficult to fight because it is cultural nationalism, it tries to play into the people’s feelings. But we know that this will not be sustained with anti-people economic policies. Therefore, the same farmer who rallied behind Modi in the last election, from his life experience now realizes that this was wrong. There lies Left’s opportunity.

27. Don’t you think that this is a pressing time for a larger Left unity? Is there any possibility in near future of the unification of CPI and CPI (M)? Ideological differences still persist? What prevents the rejoining?

There is Left unity. Two things of Left unity are pointed out. One is the unity of Left parties on the basis of a common understanding, political positions and united activity, united campaign works, struggles etc. that kind of Left unity we are building over period and we hope to widen that unity. Both CPI (M) and CPI work together. Without that there is no Left unity. But there are people who want CPI (M) and CPI to become one party. What they call merger, or, unification of the two parties. According to us that is not the agenda now. The agenda should be to strengthen Left unity and strengthen the working and co-operation between both parties. We are the two bigger Left parties at national level. That is the phase we are in. we became two political parties because of various political, ideological, and programmatic issues. Over the period of time some of them have been resolved, but some of them remain. But that doesn’t preclude us from working together. That unity or co-operation is what we are seeking to promote further. Later on experience and events will show whether we can go to higher stage of unity at that time.

First uploaded on: 21-11-2017 at 18:37 IST
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